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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Dec 14, 2009 5:16pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Garcia's mad skills

"Compare a Slipknot from '74 to one from a year later..... big difference. Now compare it to one from '83..... HUGE difference"

You arguement here is entirely absurd!

Slipknot! was just being developed in '74, they were just jamming it, figuring it out, it wasnt even a song yet! Still, Jerry's musicianship on these primative versions is vastly superior to the garbage from '83!

"Garcia's skills continued to improve up until his death...I believe that if Jerry were still alive today, he'd be even better."

What makes this so? The fact that you attended shows during the 90's?

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Poster: vapors Date: Dec 14, 2009 8:38pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Garcia's mad skills

I just don’t see the point in all this. Many things being said are down right disrespectful to the man – and to his fans. Don’t listen to it if you don’t like it – why should anyone else care? I can’t help but get irritated with some of the discussions, especially these regarding Jerry. My dilemma here must come down to differentiating between what someone wants to spend their time listening to today, as stands apart from the occasion of actually have made it into the show where Jerry was playing and appreciating being there.

Just because the performances may have been superior in younger days, to me the whole purpose of this monster called the Grateful Dead (why I went) was to provide us with a magical communal and musical experience. I hesitate to employ the term dance band, but that is who they were for me. They performed each night with whatever ability they could conjure – the music lived in that moment – without a glance ahead to the day where it would be scrutinized and critiqued.

Some folk here appear to really get off on being ‘right,’ challenging the opinions and preferences of others and strutting their superior understanding. If you think it’s another ‘garbage’ or ‘dogshit’ show, then don’t listen to it. Again - who cares? “…while Jerry dicks around for a minute or two” – why would someone bother even saying stuff like that? His guitar ability, his voice, his later songs… you guys are getting to be too much for me. Maybe the multitude of us who enjoyed the music at shows in the 80s were “just going through the motions”, but it sure was a real good time.

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Poster: spacedface Date: Dec 14, 2009 10:50pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Garcia's mad skills

The were a good time in the 80s -- but often just a 3rd of the time if that. Listening to shows here just can't compare, also because you can see what they'll be playing.

I do think many times ballads and odd songs were better later, probably because I like the sound of the band. The cautionary tales were poignant and ironic and really well done, and Jerry's craggy voice just added to the effect.

But there's no question things changed, and I wonder how financial matters played into it.

A big question for me is why drums and space were always a set format for improvisations. I love it, but the same structure over the period over 15 years led to staleness. Do any of the books talk about that format?

They'd occasionally turn on a dime and head of in another direction but still. The playing was very much better earlier and it was disturbing to see Jerry so devastated at times in the later years.

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Dec 14, 2009 10:10pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Garcia's mad skills

Well....as a self-confessed Scrutinizer and Critiquer, I thought I might make a couple points....

One, that we're moving into the days when no one young enough to care will have seen early Grateful Dead live - from pre-coma, to pre-Brent, to pre-Keith, the numbers keep dwindling. Your point that the music was good in the moment, that it was the communal experience that mattered, is an honorable one. Deadheads have probably been saying it since 1966. But it only matters to those who were there. What we're left with is this pile of tapes, to be taken on their own terms, no matter how many Archive reviews there are from showgoers who had wonderful times.
You say the band played for the moment, with not a glance ahead..... Well, maybe in later days that was true. I remember this was the band that taped all their own performances, to listen to after the shows, constantly criticizing each other - the band that pushed themselves to change, year after year, when their fans would have been happy for them to stay the same - the band that so obviously (at least in my favored 'era') is playing not just for the crowd, but for each other, with a depth and focus that goes beyond the live 'moment'.
Just a different perspective....

This post was modified by light into ashes on 2009-12-15 06:10:30

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Poster: vapors Date: Dec 15, 2009 3:30am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Garcia's mad skills

Thanks for your even tempered and well put response. I had a hard time trying to put down my perspective – I have been struggling with these feelings for a good while. I will admit that my perceptions are colored by the many good times I enjoyed during my time on tour. There is no doubt in my mind that there was a decline; the performances are readily available here and speak for themselves. It is more the tone and persistence of some posts that bothers me. Does it matter how this might affect the participation of many who visit the archive but pass on this place? I believe you made note once in reference to review versus forum contributors that caused me to wonder about that.

Jerry did drugs, he smoked, he died. His music lives on. Everyone can listen to what they want, talk about it till the sheep, cows and billy goats gruff come home. Jerry Garcia never asked anything from us, but we seem to expect so much from him? His singing, playing and songwriting were tremendous, and the recorded output is a treasure chest that we can open and freely enjoy. Everyone can listen to whatever they want – there is so much here and that in itself is the most amazing and rewarding thing to me. I certainly value what some folk contribute here and have greatly expanded my appreciation and knowledge (of a band that I never had any trouble appreciating before.) And anyone can say whatever they want – I just did.

Perhaps I should rise to your challenge and try to provide examples where the singing or playing was fine; indeed to me with Jerry’s age and condition he had a quality of emotion that was pure and real and very moving. But I believe it would be a futile enterprise for me and not worth the likelihood of causing more demeaning chatter.

It is the splendid work that folk like you put into your posts that I want to be here for. And even though I cringe when Cliff sounds off regarding what he doesn’t like, his passionate appreciation of earlier stuff is obvious and he does make compelling and insightful listening suggestions. I think it’s great that thoughts can be exchanged here and we can easily link to shows on the archive. The recommendations and analytical discussions that surface each day make visiting here well worth enduring the less attractive aspects. Thanks for enduring mine. Peace.

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Dec 15, 2009 4:16am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Garcia's mad skills

The frequent hostility of the forum speaks for itself....some can get past it, some can't. A post like yours, though, should be put at the top of the forum page.

Garcia & the band gave us so much we can listen for years & years and still always find new things to discover, or rediscover....regardless of which years we prefer.
It's an undiscriminating soul, though, who won't sometimes be disappointed by what they hear. You mention the high standards people ask of Garcia - remember that he was the first to demand those standards of himself. This is the guy who pushed Phil down some stairs for "not playing" in a show, who spent months & months in studios getting early Dead albums (or the GD Movie) 'just right', who spent hours every day (especially between tours) practicing so he could be at the top of his form onstage, yet often expressed disappointment about the shows he played....and who wouldn't give up touring no matter what condition he was in.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 15, 2009 6:51am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Garcia's mad skills

Hey D--no need to apologize; it's always enjoyable to kick this stuff around, for me...though I am sympathetic to the awkwardness or pain it might also engender for you. I lean toward the perspective LiA outlined: in a way, I find it "justification" when we can have in depth discussions of the good and the bad. You know, the "unexamined life ain't worth living" aspect. Sure, there is a lot of subjectivity in art, but there are some general rules that we as a species apply (again, I lean strongly away from Post Modernist rants of "all is social construct").

Now, for me it makes Jerry all the more "human" to find that there were failings and various aspects of his lifestyle that contributed to a decline. This isn't meant for you because you articulated a well-reasoned appreciation of the man/group, but those that reject all criticism as taboo (in many domains one finds these sorts) to me go too far the other direction.

Take for example my old man. I can now look back with love and affection while assessing/accepting his many failings. Time and distance allows it of course, and yet, if I were to ignore or subvert the foibles and mis-steps of his I think it would be a dis-service to a full appreciation of what he did in this world and his relationship to me. Not sure if that makes any sense but I see a parallel.

So, while I still "worship" the DEAD, I find that critical discussion, esp because I am not musically inclined and need help (really), helps me appreciate them even more.

Hope this doesn't come off as patronizing cause I don't mean it to be along the lines of "if you were enlightened you could love and evaluate them like I do!"...just trying to describe my take on why all of this can be worthwhile.

Now, I do try to steer away from ever implying so and so is a douche because they think 81 is good, and I don't. In fact, BillyD made some excellent points in this thread, and it helped me appreciate 81 and him as well.

I really loved his putting a fine point on it all with his comment: "is it Tell or Grendel!?" since of course we all know it's ME. Seriously though, that was an excellent point.

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Poster: vapors Date: Dec 16, 2009 12:50pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Garcia's mad skills

Coming back to this and finding that your words are sinking in a little better, I thought it would be appropriate to say thanks for the response. The parallel example of your dad does make a lot of sense, in addition to striking a personal nerve as well. At first I was thinking you were being sarcastic (!) when you said there was no need to apologize. Man I have to stop being so sensitive. Thanks to you (and LiA) for making the effort that has helped me out of my grumbling state.

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Poster: spring mountain high Date: Dec 15, 2009 6:56am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Garcia's mad skills

fantastic post, LiA

i would probably agree and borrow from you by saying that garcia's playing continued to 'evolve' through 1985, and in my opnion, became more refined...songs like althea, and peggy-o, jack a roe, and a bunch of jgb stuff (ie dear prudence) are the types of songs that don't sound difficult, but the embellishments he adds, and the little fills, the finger picking style and constant differentiation of rythmic accents, are what i seem to be able to pick out and say to myself, 'wow, i would love to have that type of mastery over the instrument.' he definitely developed a finer touch to his playing, which, unfortunately, he was not always able to display due to several combined mitigating factors.

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Poster: yur worst enemy too Date: Dec 14, 2009 10:39pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Garcia's mad skills

LiA, for years I have been looked upon as kindless. However, I started working around music around 1974 as a teenager. And now Bill Graham's personal collection is up for sale that should of been in a Museum years ago. I have been here, done that, and never really boosted on it at all. Just another chapter to my own long strange trip / movie without the help of people I have met along the way, educated unconditionally, only to be stepped over, pissed on, stabbed in the back, and laughed at, just like work.
I still don't believe the nice guy finishes last due to a C4 equation I learned 45 years ago.

Damn soap box.

Sparks - J.A.Nugget NYE 2010 - The Blasters

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFqTsmRosjg

WTF ?

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Poster: skies Date: Dec 15, 2009 6:07am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Garcia's mad skills

Yes Vapors ! I love Jerry in the 80's forever ! na !

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Poster: clashcity Date: Dec 15, 2009 6:54am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Garcia's mad skills

I know I'm late to the conversation...

but Cliff you are so judgmental and at times cruel it really surprises me the music of the Grateful Dead ever found a foothold in your heart and mind.

When it comes to these topics you are so concerned with proving everyone else wrong, enforcing that your opinion if the only correct one, and denigrating anyone who dares think differently.

Why don't you go drink some of those fine wines, cook some of those fish you catch, relax a little bit, and realize that it is ok for people to enjoy life in their own way.

Even if it does include listening to 80's Dead.

It really is ok Cliff. Why are you so mad all the time?



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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Dec 15, 2009 7:21am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Garcia's mad skills

"When it comes to these topics you are so concerned with proving everyone else wrong, enforcing that your opinion if the only correct one, and denigrating anyone who dares think differently."

Utter nonsense! I didnt start this thread, Im only one of several participants here, involved in a debate! I am entitled to my opinion, just as you are to yours, and everyone else here to theirs. YOU make this personal by singling me out! Im not attacking anyone, Im debating my opinion!

"Why don't you go drink some of those fine wines, cook some of those fish you catch, relax a little bit, and realize that it is ok for people to enjoy life in their own way.

Even if it does include listening to 80's Dead."

Now I find that funny! If someone posted here that the music from 1968 sucked, I would just laugh. But if I diss the music of the 80's, every touch head comes out of the woodwork and gives me shit! What makes my opinion so important that it offends you?

I am just as entitled to state my opinions here as anyone else! You single me out because you dissagree! Well I saw plenty of shows during the 80's, and I dont have to pretend that the music sounds good now in order the validate all the time and money I wasted going to those shitty shows!

"It really is ok Cliff. Why are you so mad all the time?"

I'm not angry, you are a troll who frequently stirs up the shit here...

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Poster: skies Date: Dec 16, 2009 4:25am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Garcia's mad skills

Quel culot incroyable, quelle mauvaise foi !

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Poster: clashcity Date: Dec 15, 2009 8:19am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Garcia's mad skills

Whatever Cliff.

I'm not a troll (you really love that term don't you old man) here to intentionally stir up trouble. I am just an opinionated person who doesn't shy away from confrontation or a chance to speak my mind.

You sir, consistently have negative words to many here. I am not offended by your opinions, they are just that. It is your attitude, and the way you just put down anything that doesn't fit in your little box.

Many others have remarked about you and your high and mighty judgments. You scoff at those not fortunate enough to have "been there" for the early era. Call them "touch heads".

I suppose now you'll spew forth about how you contribute so much to the message board and that makes you more right than myself, or any others who happen to appreciate something different than you.

I'm certain you look more like a troll than I do.

Thanks for posting.

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Dec 15, 2009 11:18am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Garcia's mad skills

"It is your attitude, and the way you just put down anything that doesn't fit in your little box.

Many others have remarked about you and your high and mighty judgments.

I suppose now you'll spew forth about how you contribute so much to the message board and that makes you more right than myself, or any others who happen to appreciate something different than you."


as often as I have had ill-words for you Clash - you are RIGHT on the money with that assessment. You have our "angry fisherman" down to a T (kinda like the "Mad Fisherman" we have here on northeast NESN - but not as funny)


This post was modified by direwolf0701 on 2009-12-15 19:18:27

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Dec 15, 2009 12:09pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Garcia's mad skills

Talk about anger?

Just cant let it go Don?

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Dec 15, 2009 12:35pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Garcia's mad skills

anger?

furthest thing from my mind, Dennis. absolute furthest thing.


(and let what go?? i dont get what you mean. your method of debate through condescending commentary, belligerent attitude, and child-like repetition is really quite entertaining. why do you think i comment?? - other than it being fun since i know you will read and respond.)

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Dec 15, 2009 12:53pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Garcia's mad skills


http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=205511

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Dec 15, 2009 1:06pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Garcia's mad skills

that was my anger??

ok - gotta admit, i still dont get what you mean

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Poster: rastamon Date: Dec 15, 2009 1:45pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Garcia's mad skills

Dire: "thanks Cliff!!!!!! nice to see you back around these parts my brother.
very kind of you to welcome me and Todd back like that .
that is why you are one of the good guys!!"

such anger!! I'm in the duck 'n cover position now.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnO9Jyz82Ps



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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Dec 15, 2009 7:48pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Garcia's mad skills

you are right - i do believe i was steaming when writing that ;)

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Poster: banditos33 Date: Dec 15, 2009 1:33pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Garcia's mad skills

Nobody that doesnt speak Huckaneese knows what that dick is saying. I do get the jist of it though and that is if your opinion is different than his then you are wrong. A condition that was caused by him being breast fed by his dad.

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Dec 15, 2009 7:48pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Garcia's mad skills

ouch!!

lol :)

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Dec 15, 2009 8:54am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Garcia's mad skills

"Early era?"

I'm 46 and didnt attend my first show until January of 1979.

And I find it immensely amusing how all you folks get so upset by my loathing of the music from the 80's...

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Poster: suasponte Date: Dec 15, 2009 10:03am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Garcia's mad skills

Cliff, we find it immensely entertaining that you offer free tickets to events to actually get people to go with you since obviously you have no friends in your day to day life.
We also find it hilarious that you have this mock story of a girlfriend, when no women would ever put up with a schmuckatelli like you.
Personally, I find it even more hilarious, that as a fisherman, you constantly take the bait!

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Poster: banditos33 Date: Dec 15, 2009 10:32am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Garcia's mad skills

"Personally, I find it even more hilarious, that as a fisherman, you constantly take the bait!" thats because he is the master-baiter.